Egypt

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Embar Angylwrath
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Egypt

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:08 pm

Another Obama shuck and jive...

Last year, we get this:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/06/25/ ... med-morsi/

Obama recognizes Morsi is the duly elected leader of Egypt, elected in a democratic process.

Now Morsi is has been forcibly removed by the military. If it walks like a coup, talks like a coup, its a coup. But Obama just can't seem to bring himself to utter those words. In fact, you can't any person in his administration to even acknowledge the word even exists. He can't say the "C" word because if he does, we can't send aid to Egypt, so he just clams up.

Now that's leadership you can believe in!

Obama: Ignoring the law for the sake of a better 'Merica.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Arkaron » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:31 pm

Pretty much nobody is going to use the C word. See also: Latin America. But, it'll be interesting to see how this turns out.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:04 pm

Probably because it's not really a coup. It's more of a recall by force. No one has stepped in saying they are running the country. The military has called for new elections.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Ddrak » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:30 am

Uh, you're suggesting the better option is call it a coup and stop sending aid? That's about as helpful as accusing Israel of human rights abuses and stopping their aid.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Harlowe » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:27 am

Now that's leadership you can believe in!

Obama: Ignoring the law for the sake of a better 'Merica.
Doesn't really matter what the details of any given situation is, you just enjoy tossing out gems like this.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:15 am

Harlowe wrote:
Now that's leadership you can believe in!

Obama: Ignoring the law for the sake of a better 'Merica.
Doesn't really matter what the details of any given situation is, you just enjoy tossing out gems like this.
When I posted this, I knew you'd comment on the delivery, rather than the message. Got a real opinion on the matter Harlowe?

@Dd - Yeah, I have a better option. Instead of ignoring the law, pass another that modifies the current law to grant Egypt an exemption. It might be the first significant bi-partisan act of Congress other than naming post offices.

@Kulaf - Egypt had a democratic-based election, and Morsi won. The military removed him by force, and installed an interim leadership council, so he was replaced with a new head of government. That's a coup.

And what if the Egyptians don't like the next guy they elect, get pissy about it, and he's forcibly removed? Is the US going to say that's just democracy in action?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:15 pm

Embar Angylwrath wrote:@Kulaf - Egypt had a democratic-based election, and Morsi won. The military removed him by force, and installed an interim leadership council, so he was replaced with a new head of government. That's a coup.
Not by any traditional sense of the word it isn't. If the "leadership council" doesn't surrender power after the new election.......THEN it will be a coup.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:51 pm

Kulaf wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote:@Kulaf - Egypt had a democratic-based election, and Morsi won. The military removed him by force, and installed an interim leadership council, so he was replaced with a new head of government. That's a coup.
Not by any traditional sense of the word it isn't. If the "leadership council" doesn't surrender power after the new election.......THEN it will be a coup.
Bullshit.

The leadership council IS the new head of state, period. What they do next is irrelevant. A new head of state was imposed after the forcible removal of a democratically elected head of state.

If the 99% in this country started protesting Obama's policies, and convinced the military to remove him from office, and placed the Supreme Court in charge of the country, under your definition, that would not be a coup. And essentially, that's what happened in Egypt, right? We can convince the military to depose Obama, or another President, simply because we don't like what he's doing? Heretical thought to democracy, if you ask me, but maybe your definition of democracy is more... fluid.

I think most Americans, whether they like Obama or not, would see that circumstance as a coup. A usurpation of the democratic process. But I'm a little ignorant in the Egyptian constitution, or whatever is the equivalent. Can you please point me to the part of that document that allows for the arbitrary judgement of the military to decide what's in the best interests of the electorate?

Let me save you the trouble. You can't, and you are smart enough to know it. This is a coup. Obama has to deal with it. Sucks it happened on his watch, but there it is. I'm betting he's having second and third thoughts about endorsing the Arab Spring though, especially as it relates to the Muslim Brotherhood.
Last edited by Embar Angylwrath on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Ddrak » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:54 pm

The military in Egypt is playing the "you can have any democratically elected leader you want, as long as we approve" game. That's just a coup dressed up pretty. It's the same game the US plays - consider Hamas winning the Palestinian election as an example.

As for the law, it's a funny thing. Changing the law sends a powerful message that the US cares more about people it likes than democracy. That sounds less and less like being the "good guys", and I doubt you'd find support on either side for behaving that way. Too easy to be attacked on at the next election.

On the Arab Spring - yeah, funny how it's more about factional power than any sort of renaissance.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:25 pm

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Let me save you the trouble. You can't, and you are smart enough to know it. This is a coup. Obama has to deal with it. Sucks it happened on his watch, but there it is. I'm betting he's having second and third thoughts about endorsing the Arab Spring though, especially as it relates to the Muslim Brotherhood.
We don't have a history of removing officials from government and installing new ones. The assassination of Anwar Sadat was a coup. By Egyptian standards.....this was not.

If you consider this a coup, then the 2011 revolution was a coup as well as the military took control of the government until the elections could take place.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:59 am

Are you implying there has to be an assassination before its a coup?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Partha » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:54 pm

We don't have a history of removing officials from government and installing new ones
Sure we do, just not generally in America. Iran 1953, anyone? Saddam? The Taliban?
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant

"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Are you implying there has to be an assassination before its a coup?
No. But traditionally the people who take power don't relinquish it.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:32 pm

Partha wrote:
We don't have a history of removing officials from government and installing new ones
Sure we do, just not generally in America. Iran 1953, anyone? Saddam? The Taliban?
You forgot Frederick Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Hirohito.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Ddrak » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:21 am

Kulaf wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote:Are you implying there has to be an assassination before its a coup?
No. But traditionally the people who take power don't relinquish it.
The Egyptian military is clever. They depose leaders when they start going beyond the lines the military wants them to work within. It's all about "democracy", as long as you go in the broad direction WE want.

A little like the Illuminati in the US. ;)

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Re: Egypt

Post by Partha » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:52 am

Kulaf wrote:
Partha wrote:
We don't have a history of removing officials from government and installing new ones
Sure we do, just not generally in America. Iran 1953, anyone? Saddam? The Taliban?
You forgot Frederick Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Hirohito.
We're not discussing your role models here; pay attention.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant

"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:38 am

Partha wrote:
Kulaf wrote:
Partha wrote:
We don't have a history of removing officials from government and installing new ones
Sure we do, just not generally in America. Iran 1953, anyone? Saddam? The Taliban?
You forgot Frederick Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Hirohito.
We're not discussing your role models here; pay attention.
Only if you want to lay claim to the Shah, Saddam and the Taliban there buttercup.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Kulaf » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Egyptian_protests

A timeline of what transpired prior to the removal of Morsi. I think his decesion to make himself a "dictator in effect" for 2 weeks and shove his Constitution on Egypt basically shattered any trust the people of Egypt had in him.

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Re: Egypt

Post by Arkaron » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:22 am

Partha wrote:
We don't have a history of removing officials from government and installing new ones
Sure we do, just not generally in America. Iran 1953, anyone? Saddam? The Taliban?
Chile!

See, this game is fun.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Harlowe » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:35 pm

This kid is awesome...speaking of Egypt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I

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