Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Taxious » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:55 am

Arathena wrote:
Taxious wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote:Why haven't we heard somethng?
That's quite the question and I wish we (as humans) could find an answer. I also wish I could do something to help bolster the scientific community right now other than using SETI@home (shameless promotion). It aggravates me when I think about how little funding science gets in our country compared to other departments - especially the military.

Personally, I'm excited to see travel plans to Europa sometime here soon.
Remember that radio communication from another world will come in the form of a 'candy shell' around their civilization. They will broadcast for an unknown number of years, then broadcast will cease, with either the cessation of radio by collapse or replacement. It is entirely possible that the transmissions from our nearest neighbors stopped when we were still beating Neanderthals over the head with sticks, in one last staticy emission of nuclear flame.
That's another (Carl Sagan) issue that scares me to think about - we have a greater chance of killing our species with war, than ever finding life on another planet.

On the off-chance that another civilization didn't kill themselves off: sending a signal is as important as looking for signals, with regard to finding intelligent life. Hopefully aliens would be smart enough to leave a radio blasting, even in the advancement of their communication technology.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Garrdor » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:04 pm

That'd be awesome if the ETs were in fact sick bastards like in Mars Attacks - and made huge Jesus robots to land and sandal-squash us/zap us with their lazer eyes.

But in reality - I'm sure ET's will be found, maybe not in my lifetime. It's said to be a mathmatical impossibility for us to be the only life in the universe.

When they're found, I'm sure alot of biblefags will be trumped. I'm also sure that some will cling onto the blindfold with an eternal deathgrip. "OMG ITS PART OF HIS PLAN"

...

...

on that note:

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Kulaf » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:04 pm

Klast Brell wrote:ET does not appear inthe bible. That would cause consternation for some, but others would adapt as they always have. Lots of things are not in the bible and people have adjusted their religious beleifs to make it "OK" and to make it work with the current world.

The germ theory of disease for instance. Disease was seen as a punishment for sin. There are several quotes in the bible that support this. The germ theory was not compatible with the bible. Indeed many people still believe that this is still true in the case of AIDS etc. When the germ theory was first coming out religious people freaked. But as the evidence piled up people eventually rationalized it as compatible with their religion.

Meteorology is another science that people eventually rationalized. God no longer makes the weather, etcept when he sends hurricanes to punish sinful New Orleans (see AIDS above).

Young earth creationists are phasing out as more and more people rationalize Evolution and plate tectonics in to compatibility with the bible.

I'm positive that if ET landed on planet earth there would be a strong reaction from the religious community. ET is not mentioned int eh bible. what's the closest thing in the bible to ET? Demons, the Antichrist, etc. If ET was hostile the religious would be comfortable in their beliefs that ET came from Satan. If ET was benign and friendly Religious people would eventually decide to rationalize it in to compatibility with the bible and even try to proselytize and "save" them.
I think this is you bending religion to suit your belief structure.....not the other way around. The order of creation is pretty much standard evolutionary structure as to the introduction of species. And if disease was seen as punishment for sin then why did Jesus cure 10 lepers just because they asked him to? As far as plate techtonics go.....let me see if I rememeber by Genesis........and god created the seas to gather in one place......and then created the land to seperate the seas.

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:36 pm

Kulaf wrote:
Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:Turalyon is correct. Ok so we're waiting on other intelligent life to catch up to our technology but our technology has come and gone. What about the era of the Egyptians and Mayans where they had technology that we still can't duplicate to this day ? Then the dark ages came of course and all was lost. Now thats not to say that maybe ancient cultures did or did not have contact with our beigns but it seems safe to say there's probably both kinds of intelligent life. However that theory gives headway to the idea of evolution versus the God theory to begin with now doesn't it ?
Ok I gotta ask.....exactly what tech did the Egyptians and Mayans have that we can't duplicate?
Just off the top of my head ? how about the building of the pyramids and the crystal skulls ?
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Harlowe » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:45 pm

Why wouldn't we be able to do either of those? Lack of slaves?

Besides the Crystal Skulls aren't from Egypt or the Mayans - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_skull
Hardly something we can't replicate.
The crystal skulls are a number of human skull models fashioned from blocks of clear or milky quartz crystal rock, claimed to be pre-Columbian Mesoamerican artifacts by their alleged finders. However, none of the specimens made available for scientific study were authenticated as pre-Columbian in origin. The results of these studies demonstrated that those examined were manufactured in the mid-19th century or later, almost certainly in Europe.[1] Despite some claims presented in an assortment of popularising literature, legends of crystal skulls with mystical powers do not figure in genuine Mesoamerican or other Native American mythologies and spiritual accounts.[2]

The skulls are often claimed to exhibit paranormal phenomena by some members of the New Age movement, and have often been portrayed as such in fiction. Perhaps the most widely known of such portrayals occurs in the film Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Crystal skulls have been a popular subject appearing in numerous sci-fi television series,[3] novels,[4] and video games.[5]

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Kulaf » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:18 pm

Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:
Kulaf wrote:
Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:Turalyon is correct. Ok so we're waiting on other intelligent life to catch up to our technology but our technology has come and gone. What about the era of the Egyptians and Mayans where they had technology that we still can't duplicate to this day ? Then the dark ages came of course and all was lost. Now thats not to say that maybe ancient cultures did or did not have contact with our beigns but it seems safe to say there's probably both kinds of intelligent life. However that theory gives headway to the idea of evolution versus the God theory to begin with now doesn't it ?
Ok I gotta ask.....exactly what tech did the Egyptians and Mayans have that we can't duplicate?
Just off the top of my head ? how about the building of the pyramids and the crystal skulls ?
Do you mean duplicate as in do it the way they did it? We could do it pretty easily actually. But why would we want to when we can pour cement?

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Klast Brell » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:14 pm

Kulaf wrote:
Klast Brell wrote:ET does not appear inthe bible. That would cause consternation for some, but others would adapt as they always have. Lots of things are not in the bible and people have adjusted their religious beleifs to make it "OK" and to make it work with the current world.

The germ theory of disease for instance. Disease was seen as a punishment for sin. There are several quotes in the bible that support this. The germ theory was not compatible with the bible. Indeed many people still believe that this is still true in the case of AIDS etc. When the germ theory was first coming out religious people freaked. But as the evidence piled up people eventually rationalized it as compatible with their religion.

Meteorology is another science that people eventually rationalized. God no longer makes the weather, etcept when he sends hurricanes to punish sinful New Orleans (see AIDS above).

Young earth creationists are phasing out as more and more people rationalize Evolution and plate tectonics in to compatibility with the bible.

I'm positive that if ET landed on planet earth there would be a strong reaction from the religious community. ET is not mentioned int eh bible. what's the closest thing in the bible to ET? Demons, the Antichrist, etc. If ET was hostile the religious would be comfortable in their beliefs that ET came from Satan. If ET was benign and friendly Religious people would eventually decide to rationalize it in to compatibility with the bible and even try to proselytize and "save" them.
I think this is you bending religion to suit your belief structure.....not the other way around. The order of creation is pretty much standard evolutionary structure as to the introduction of species. And if disease was seen as punishment for sin then why did Jesus cure 10 lepers just because they asked him to? As far as plate techtonics go.....let me see if I rememeber by Genesis........and god created the seas to gather in one place......and then created the land to seperate the seas.
Young earth creationists don't believe in evolution etc. That's specifically why I brought them up. And I'm not arguing from theory on the disease thing. It also really happened. It took the Catholic Church a hell of a long time to accept that the earth revolved around the sun. It took the catholic church a hell of a long time to accept the concept of Vacuum. (The going theory was that the absence of everything included the absence of god. Thus attempts to create a vacuum were attempts to remove god) And it took the church a long time to accept that disease was caused by germs. Jesus cured 10 lepers, but he also forgave them their sins right? The bible is pretty specific about leprosy. It is cured by animal sacrifices and religious rituals in the old testament. It is cured by faith and grace in the new. To come along and say you don't need god to cure disease. To say that god can be replaced by antibiotics was quite heretical in it's time.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:38 pm

I mean yes duplicate it the way they did. We could easily do it now by pouring cement but the result wouldn't be the same. NOW with modern technology we could build the pyramids, however we're talking with ancient tools and technologies that were then lost for thousands of years where the technologies of the ancient world couldn't be duplicated, couldn't be explained.

I said ancient cultures Harlowe and simple threw out 2 for posterity.

How about the vitrified ruins that are more then 1000 years old ... How about the Nazca lines ? How about Baalbek and the Stone of the South ? how did they move such large heavy stones in such times ? Slaves sure, but 1000 tons ?

Puma Punku ? the layout of Teotihuacán ? The Kailasa Temple ? ... Atlantis ? =D

How about the Inca ruins with drawings depicting flying space vehicles, and the Hindu texts talking about the same ?

I'm playing Devils Advocate in this one, but partly because I can't believe by any stretch we're the only intelligent life in the galaxy, it stands to reason in MY mind that there is more and less intelligent life. I'm not trying to prove anything by any means, i'm just tossing some more questions or information into an interesting thread.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Arathena » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:42 pm

Kulaf wrote: I think this is you bending religion to suit your belief structure.....not the other way around. The order of creation is pretty much standard evolutionary structure as to the introduction of species.
Care to list them side by side out of your references? Because the last Bible I looked at posited the creation of plants before creation of the sun and the moon.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Alluveal » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:05 pm

Ddrak wrote:ETs would give most religions a good shake-up, but not necessarily destroy them. If Jesus came to rescue us from our sins, what about the aliens? Why are we special and not them? The whole thing would create a theological shitstorm.

Dd
Well, some of the Christians I know have a reason for all those "non-special" people of history's past. The Native Americans, etc.

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Ddrak » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:18 pm

Arathena wrote:
Kulaf wrote: I think this is you bending religion to suit your belief structure.....not the other way around. The order of creation is pretty much standard evolutionary structure as to the introduction of species.
Care to list them side by side out of your references? Because the last Bible I looked at posited the creation of plants before creation of the sun and the moon.
Well, plants existed before the cloud layer from volcanic activity would have died down so the sun and moon wouldn't have been visible on earth until after the sky cleared.

(Just one explanation I've heard)

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:20 pm

Alluveal wrote:
Ddrak wrote:ETs would give most religions a good shake-up, but not necessarily destroy them. If Jesus came to rescue us from our sins, what about the aliens? Why are we special and not them? The whole thing would create a theological shitstorm.

Dd
Well, some of the Christians I know have a reason for all those "non-special" people of history's past. The Native Americans, etc.
Don't confuse Mormons with Christians...
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:21 pm

Ddrak wrote:
Arathena wrote:
Kulaf wrote: I think this is you bending religion to suit your belief structure.....not the other way around. The order of creation is pretty much standard evolutionary structure as to the introduction of species.
Care to list them side by side out of your references? Because the last Bible I looked at posited the creation of plants before creation of the sun and the moon.
Well, plants existed before the cloud layer from volcanic activity would have died down so the sun and moon wouldn't have been visible on earth until after the sky cleared.

(Just one explanation I've heard)

Dd
Not a good explanation since plants don't grow without sunlight.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Ddrak » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:38 pm

There would have been light filtering through, just not actually visible as the "sun". I dunno - I'm just making shit up now.

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:32 pm

Ddrak wrote:There would have been light filtering through, just not actually visible as the "sun". I dunno - I'm just making shit up now.

Dd
With that level of filtering (can't make out the sun but some light gets through), there still wouldn't be any plants unless they can grow on ice caps and glaciers.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Arathena » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:01 pm

The Order of Genesis - in the FIRST creation story is:

Light.
Sky & Sea
Sea & Land.
All "plants bearing seed".
Sun, Moon.
Fish, Birds, & Sea Monsters.
All "cattle" and "beasts".
Man.

In the SECOND creation story in Genesis, it goes;

Earth & Heavens,
Man,
Trees,
All the 'beasts and birds'
Woman.

To be fair, the two creation stories in Genesis are less crack addled than, say, Odin, Vili, and Ve crafting the world of men from the body of a giant ogre created by the mixing of the air from the place of fire and the place of ice. But they still don't jive with the evidence.
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Kulaf » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:18 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:
Ddrak wrote:There would have been light filtering through, just not actually visible as the "sun". I dunno - I'm just making shit up now.

Dd
With that level of filtering (can't make out the sun but some light gets through), there still wouldn't be any plants unless they can grow on ice caps and glaciers.
Actually plant life can grow in the oceans under several feet of ice. Oceanic ice is very clear and allows sunlight to pass through it quite readily.

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Harlowe » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:02 am

Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:I mean yes duplicate it the way they did. We could easily do it now by pouring cement but the result wouldn't be the same. NOW with modern technology we could build the pyramids, however we're talking with ancient tools and technologies that were then lost for thousands of years where the technologies of the ancient world couldn't be duplicated, couldn't be explained.

I said ancient cultures Harlowe and simple threw out 2 for posterity.

How about the vitrified ruins that are more then 1000 years old ... How about the Nazca lines ? How about Baalbek and the Stone of the South ? how did they move such large heavy stones in such times ? Slaves sure, but 1000 tons ?

Puma Punku ? the layout of Teotihuacán ? The Kailasa Temple ? ... Atlantis ? =D

How about the Inca ruins with drawings depicting flying space vehicles, and the Hindu texts talking about the same ?

I'm playing Devils Advocate in this one, but partly because I can't believe by any stretch we're the only intelligent life in the galaxy, it stands to reason in MY mind that there is more and less intelligent life. I'm not trying to prove anything by any means, i'm just tossing some more questions or information into an interesting thread.
With enough slave labor and the number of years it took them to do it, we certainly could. There are a quite a few theories as to how it was done. They weren't created by aliens from outer space.

One of the two things you brought up was something pretty hoaxy.

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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:43 am

Oh I'm not suggesting creations from other beings, I'm simply suggesting the technology they used was obviously not as modern as ours, but somehow it was done. Theories exist yes, however nothing's been proven because anything attempted failed using "ancient" technology available at the time.

I just think it's a waste to believe we're the only intelligent like in the entire galaxy, maybe we've been visited and maybe we haven't. Maybe they've received our signels and ignored them, or answered and we simply don't have the technology, or whatever the case may be
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Re: Would ET Discovery Destroy Religion?

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:17 pm

Kulaf wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote:
Ddrak wrote:There would have been light filtering through, just not actually visible as the "sun". I dunno - I'm just making shit up now.

Dd
With that level of filtering (can't make out the sun but some light gets through), there still wouldn't be any plants unless they can grow on ice caps and glaciers.
Actually plant life can grow in the oceans under several feet of ice. Oceanic ice is very clear and allows sunlight to pass through it quite readily.
The point was that in Genesis, plants were created before the Sun and Moon. If there was no sunlight, it wouldn't make a difference how clear the ice is.
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