Oh for eff's sake, what next

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Harlowe
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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Harlowe » Fri May 17, 2013 6:54 am

What does that have to do with the strawman comment? I said calling Arathena's remark a strawman was a stretch.

Damn, Republicans altered the Benghazi emails....jaaaysus.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5 ... -reported/

I know this was posted before, but for some reason it didn't register that Republicans actually did it. Derp on me, but this seems really bad, since they've been wanting to make this their flagship attack.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Arathena » Fri May 17, 2013 8:08 am

The fundamental problem is that the underlying law is bullshit, and requires subjective value calls - not woe is me persecution on either side. Crocodile tears over not liking the value calls means its time to change the law to something that works.
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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Tue May 21, 2013 5:47 pm

Lois Lerner invokes the 5th Amendment when called to testify before Congress on the IRS scandal.

http://news.yahoo.com/irs-official-5th- ... 15620.html

Not very good optics for the Administration here. Also revealed, top WH counsel knew of the report and most of what was in it, but didn't inform the President. The spin: didn't want to affect the investigation. The truth: the investigation was done, and merely informing the President doesn't affect anything.

"Two words Mr. President, plausible deniability."
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by MeGusta » Wed May 22, 2013 7:15 am

The fundamental problem is that the underlying law is bullshit, and requires subjective value calls - not woe is me persecution on either side. Crocodile tears over not liking the value calls means its time to change the law to something that works.
This is one of the worst justifications for violating the law I have ever been witness to. While there is some subjectivism, any claims or implications that it is a one person value call is completely erroneous.

The process is, in point of fact, magintudes more complex and the checks and balances do not allow for unsubstantiated "value calls"


http://www.fox19.com/story/22380127/rea ... rs-scandal
Here is how that works.

When an application for tax exempt status comes into the IRS, agents have 270 days to work through that application. If the application is not processed within those 270 days it automatically triggers flags in the system. When that happens, individual agents are required to input a status update on that individual case once a month, every month until the case is resolved.

Keep in mind, at least 300 groups were targeted out of Cincinnati alone. Those applications spent anywhere from 18 months to nearly 3 years in the system and some still don't have their non-profit status. 300 groups multiplied by at least 18 months for each group, means thousands of red flags would have been generated in the system.
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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed May 22, 2013 2:10 pm

Lerner might end up going to jail now, we'll see how this play out.

You can't really make rebuttable statements on the record and then exercise 5th amendment rights. Self proclamtions of one's innocence and how one didn't break any IRS rules are rebuttable, and there's a right to cross examine those statements. She blew her 5th amendment rights when she did that.

Now, if she faces off with Issa and doesn't answer the questions posed to her, she puts Issa in the position of jailing her for contempt of Congress, where she will sit until the lawyers work it out.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Ddrak » Thu May 23, 2013 3:27 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Lerner might end up going to jail now, we'll see how this play out.

You can't really make rebuttable statements on the record and then exercise 5th amendment rights. Self proclamtions of one's innocence and how one didn't break any IRS rules are rebuttable, and there's a right to cross examine those statements. She blew her 5th amendment rights when she did that.

Now, if she faces off with Issa and doesn't answer the questions posed to her, she puts Issa in the position of jailing her for contempt of Congress, where she will sit until the lawyers work it out.
Are you sure?

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-La ... e-5th.html
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-ri ... ation.html

Those indicate that a witness can selectively take the fifth.
Someone who is subpoenaed or a witness only loses their right to the fifth if they actually take the stand.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Thu May 23, 2013 10:09 am

I guess we will find out. She was called as a witness, so its a little more tricky. I'm not sure if she was called by subpeona. If she was, Issa has a bigger stick to force her testimony. Regardless, Issa has the power to issue a contempt of Congress charge, whther or not it is correctly applied. This means she will head to jail until the contempt of COngress charge is ruled correct or incorrect, or Issa drops it.

The bigger issue is this though. She made some pretty bold statements about how she did nothing wrong, broke no law and followed all the rules. Then she takes the 5th. Why? And what message does that send?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Kulaf » Thu May 23, 2013 6:36 pm

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/lerner- ... /id/505922

Alan Dershowitz concludes that she can be held in contempt.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Thu May 23, 2013 8:06 pm

I agree. Pretty much the same reasoning I gave. You can't make admissible statements under oath and then deny cross-examination of those statements by claiming 5th Amendment protection. If you open a subject and make statements relevant to the subject, others have right to examine those statements. She opened the subject of "no laws broken" and "no IRS rules broken" and "did nothing wrong". Those are statements of fact, not opinion, and an arbiter of facts can't just let them stand on their own without an opportunity provided to an adversary to question the maker of the statements.

On an associated note, she was placed on leave (probably paid) today. Reports are she was placed on leave for refusing to resign her position. Tactically smart on her part, if you ask me. There is absolutely no incentive for her to resign, given the protections a civil servant (/laugh) gets. This pretty much guarantees a special prosecutor will be appointed, which means big time investigative power, all the way up to WH staff. She gave the Republicans a golden opportunity to make a lot of hay with the Admin, since they already know WH counsel sat on the report and didn't inform Obama.

Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Ddrak » Fri May 24, 2013 3:56 am

I meant to say a witness can claim the fifth at any time whether they've opened a line of questioning or not.
Someone subpoenaed or a *defendant* is under the more strict "once you start talking, you have to finish" rule.

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Re: Oh for eff's sake, what next

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Fri May 24, 2013 12:18 pm

Lerner was appearing under subpoena so she waived her 5th rights when she started talking.

The trickier element here is Issa let her go and didn't issue a contempt of Congress on her. I'm not sure he gets a second bite at the apple now. I think he has to re-subpoena her, and she has to appear. When she does, I think she may be able to claim 5th Amendment protection (if she doesn't inadvertently waive it again) since she had already appeared, and was dismissed, under the first subpoena.

Now, if Issa maintains she is still under the first subpoena, and that he didn't actually and formerly dismiss her, then she will need to testify and answer the questions posed her, or go to jail.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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