Kermit Gosnell

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Tarfang_Trubasher » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:56 am

When you need three grand to get it done and it takes you six months to lay your hands on three grand... guess what?
Planned Parenthood puts the cost at $300-950 in the first trimester. This might lend a thought to "why wait until the third trimester to abort?"

While I don't personally support abortion, I still lend my support to the power of choice for others. I think questioning the legality of abortion isn't the point. My problem with this situation is the question: Is Kermit Gosnell an exception? Much like people who choose to shoot up theaters or schools -- they hardly represent the whole culture of gun ownership. To me, Gosnell sounds like an extremely demented and disgusting human being that liked to "play God" and end life. But, that is a personal response likely tied to emotion. Anyone that does harm like he has done, needs to leave society permanently and quickly. Preferably without fanfare. Additionally, society needs to view this as a person with crossed wiring, not as a representation of all "abortion doctors."

It's a matter of cultures and mindsets.

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Harlowe » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:16 am

Fallakin NONE of that shows Partha defending Gosnell. Not one bit of it.

Arathena, I could not "amen" this enough, well said.
We, as a people, need to stop considering pregnancies punishment for sex. We need to stop considering sex an evil thing, and start treating it like it is - a neutral thing with consequences that can be dealth with. We need to deal with the sex education problems - Yes, in middle / high school, and beyond. We need to be honest enough to admit that this isn't a rural fucking culture anymore, and realize that the Duggar family model is inappropriate to families. We need to be honest enough to admit that lying about sex, discouraging birth control, discouraging abortion, and then throwing any resulting families to the wolves shows no benefit to society nor to the individuals. People that cannot support a family will get rid of pregnancies that happen if they can - and they will do so in the way that they think will cause the least suffering to that potential child. These people need to know what their options are before it happens, and they need to have a real way to get it. When you need three grand to get it done and it takes you six months to lay your hands on three grand... guess what?
Even at $600-$950, someone poor is going to need a lot of time to get that which = later abortions or unwanted pregnancies and babies and families that people don't want to support. If we nip this in the bud early on, there will be far, far fewer unwanted pregnancies. THAT should be our angle on this. Studies have shown teen pregnancies are highest were abstinence only educations is the standard. That needs to stop. Just like trying to steamroll freakin creationism into our science classes and Texas rewriting textbooks to give a shiny spin on slavery and capitalism.

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Jarochai Alabaster » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:28 am

Tarfang_Trubasher wrote:
When you need three grand to get it done and it takes you six months to lay your hands on three grand... guess what?
Planned Parenthood puts the cost at $300-950 in the first trimester. This might lend a thought to "why wait until the third trimester to abort?"
I've been poor enough at times where scrounging up $300 (Beyond my baseline expenses at the time) in 3 months was an absolute impossibility. Nevermind $950. For anyone who could be described as "living paycheck to paycheck," these are probably not reasonable amounts of money to just pull out of your ass.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Partha » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:00 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:His victims were unable to defend themselves. Lets not forget where the tradgedy really lies here.

The mothers of those victims, who in some cases were victims themsleves, were largely uneducated and poor. Many were not of this country or culture. I have sympathy for them.

Partha's argument doesn't hold water. Abortion IS legal and this STILL happened. If abortions became illegal and went underground, I'd wager most of the individuals performing those abortions would be trained medical professionals willing to risk jail time, because they are true beleivers. There might be less of them, but they would be there. The coat hanger meme is over-done and simply not plausible. Except is very isolated cases like this.
This is supposedly a 'trained medical professional, and exactly how many women were mangled?' There are many things I find troubling about this investigation, not the least of which being that AT LEAST one viable baby was killed. As far as the 'over-done meme', I'll merely direct you here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... jem-10-278
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Harlowe » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:18 am

See bullshit exactly like this....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/1 ... 09223.html

....

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:41 pm

Let me clarify; There is only 2 excuses for abortion: Rape and Incest. Its still disgusting to think about, but I wouldn't dare force those women to live with that for the rest of their lives.

I'm only partly trolling; Partha is making excuses as to why this could have happened, but its only to further his own agenda (and not to give excuses to let this monster off the hook).
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Harlowe » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:50 pm

So you were just being dishonest aka trolling to get a rise out of Partha? It doesn't really matter what his agenda is, you have one yourself, but it does matter when you accuse someone of something they aren't doing in a lame attempt to discredit or shame them.

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:18 pm

Harlowe wrote:So you were just being dishonest aka trolling to get a rise out of Partha?
This is new? And he hasn't trolled me ever?
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Massterloo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:56 pm

This Thread needs more dead babies....lets eat some to heroic western music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIJz13PrLt8
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Partha » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:19 pm

Fallakin Kuvari wrote:Let me clarify; There is only 2 excuses for abortion: Rape and Incest. Its still disgusting to think about, but I wouldn't dare force those women to live with that for the rest of their lives.

I'm only partly trolling; Partha is making excuses as to why this could have happened, but its only to further his own agenda (and not to give excuses to let this monster off the hook).
Life of the mother isn't good enough for you, I see. I bet that respect comes shining through on date night.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Harlowe » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:56 pm

Maybe he feels it's God's will for both the mother and infant to die.
Fallakin Kuvari wrote:
Harlowe wrote:So you were just being dishonest aka trolling to get a rise out of Partha?
This is new? And he hasn't trolled me ever?
Someone else said it best...."I was just trolling" is nowadays just an excuse for people who espouse horrible viewpoints, get called out on them, but then don't want to admit that they were wrong. I don't recall Partha being called out for a dickish opinion then hid behind "Just mostly trolling".

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:32 pm

Partha wrote:
Fallakin Kuvari wrote:Let me clarify; There is only 2 excuses for abortion: Rape and Incest. Its still disgusting to think about, but I wouldn't dare force those women to live with that for the rest of their lives.

I'm only partly trolling; Partha is making excuses as to why this could have happened, but its only to further his own agenda (and not to give excuses to let this monster off the hook).
Life of the mother isn't good enough for you, I see. I bet that respect comes shining through on date night.
In case you forgot; Married with a child. I get the whole "life of the mother" thing; Personally I think God has his own plans -- maybe the life in the mother is meant to survive past her living and do great things; maybe they both survive and live on to do great things or be horrible people (same could be said for Rape/Incest -- but those are disgusting(though 2 wrongs also don't make a right)), maybe they both die tragically and the father goes on to do something he wouldn't have otherwise done... Who are we to make that decision?
Harlowe wrote: Someone else said it best...."I was just trolling" is nowadays just an excuse for people who espouse horrible viewpoints, get called out on them, but then don't want to admit that they were wrong. I don't recall Partha being called out for a dickish opinion then hid behind "Just mostly trolling".
If I was "just trolling" I wouldn't be maintaining those viewpoints above. I was definitely "mostly" trolling in regards to Partha's responses; I feel that both me and him could still agree that this monster deserves whatever is coming to him, whether it be in the Justice system or beyond his existence in this life.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Massterloo » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:06 am

God has his own plans...for you being Dickish
:)


God has his own plans is the biggest cop out for Anything, and Everything that ends tragicly. Rape - Gods plan. Murder - God's plan. Cancer, and other diseses that ends in death - God's plan. Terrorist bomb - God's plan. Volcano - God's plan. Tsunami..2000 people washed away - Yup, God's plan.

Fall's Herpes - God's plan.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:16 pm

Childish remarks -- your choice, God's design.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Fall - I think your views on abortion are not consistent. If abortion is ok in some circumstances because of what may or may not affect the mental state of the mother, then should we evaluate the mother's state of mind for any abortion?

Therapist: "Did it traumatize you when you were raped?"
Mother: "I was drunk and I really don't remember getting raped."

Therapist: "Did it traumatize you when you were raped?"
Mother: "It's hard to get through each day knowing there is life growing in me from that rape, I remember it vividly, the life in me is a constant reminder of that horrific event."

Two people, two rapes, two very different psychological reactions. Is one abortion better than the other?

Here's my take on it. Abortion ain't cool in any circumstance, even rape and incest, except when a doctor has to make the call on which life to save. Baby OR mother. We don't put to death innocent bystanders to a crime, which is what a baby out of rape/incest is. Through no fault of his/her own, the baby had no choice in the act the created it. Why kill it because it may/may not cause trauma to one of the individuals involved in the crime?

Also, let's address incest. I've always been confused by people who lump rape and incest in the same group. I just don't understand it. Incest implies consensual sex. If not, it's rape. Why would anyone who says they appose abortion be in favor of it in cases of incest? Because a human conceived in incest has a higher percentage chance of genetic abnormality? If that's the case, then the same people who think its ok to for abortion in the case of incest should be ok with women over 40 having an abortion. Or women with a known genetic aberration having an abortion. Or women who conceive of a Down's syndrome having an abortion. Or those humans that have "insert genetic aberration here" being aborted.

Your views on abortion are logically inconsistent Fall. Maybe you want to reflect where you really stand.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:08 pm

I think Abortion is disgusting in any circumstance, even when done on a victim of rape or incest. In a perfect world every rape victim would be given plan B within 5 days of the occurrence.

While my views may seem "logically inconsistent" to you, I'm definitely not the only person who holds these viewpoints on Abortion.
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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Ddrak » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:07 am

Therapist: "Did it traumatize you when you were raped?"
Mother: "I was drunk and I really don't remember getting raped."

Therapist: "Did it traumatize you when you were raped?"
Mother: "It's hard to get through each day knowing there is life growing in me from that rape, I remember it vividly, the life in me is a constant reminder of that horrific event."
I just want to add that neither is realistic. All rape is traumatic whether the woman remembers the actual event or not, and no rape victim that wanted an abortion for psychological trauma would refer to the baby as "the life in me", rather "that thing", or possibly not directly refer to it at all.

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Kulaf » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:11 am

I'll just leave this here:

It is quite possible.....and even probable.....that had abortion for rape been available for say the last 500 or so years.......that many people posting on this board might cease to exist.

I am sure I would be one of them. One side of my family gets rather muddied in the southern IL/KY hillbilly era. I'm guessing at least one woman in my family tree a few hundred or so years ago got knocked up against her will.

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Ddrak » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:34 am

Pointless hypothetical. Had safe abortions been generally available in the 1600s, we'd just as likely be living in a steampunk paradise. ;)

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Re: Kermit Gosnell

Post by Jarochai Alabaster » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:35 am

If god wants a say in US politics and legislation he's more than welcome to apply for citizenship, after which he can vote.

The only people who should have any say in an abortion are the doctor and the individual seeking an abortion. The fetus enjoys the protection of a uterus at the mother's discretion entirely. In no other circumstance is it acceptable for one person to demand access to or resources from someone else's body, therefore it is inconsistent to force pregnant women, regardless of the circumstances, to risk their health and well-being against their will for the health and well-being of another.
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